Curse

Aeon221 · Mar 27, 2011, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Since coming back to Guild Wars, I've joined an alliance where most of the members are PvErs. Some of them are hardcore about it (one even said he wasn't interested in PvP because he's been cussed out for playing badly) but others are interested enough to give it a shot.

Right now, the only organized option open to low skilled teams is AB, which is fun and fine. And the PvErs seem quite pleased that they get rewarded with faction, to buy skills, and lux or kurz points, to rank up. Plus they're enjoying themselves, mostly because they like being on an organized team with a monk who knows what he's doing from years of play.

But here's the thing. They know exactly how much they get from the various lux and kurz speed clears, and they aren't happy that, after all the waiting and fighting and effort and the chance of defeat, they get almost nothing for it.

If ANet bumped up the various reward amounts for winning, I'd be able to get them to play regularly and eventually take the plunge into GvG. But without that carrot, it's tough to get them away from what they know for something that they know will eat up a lot of time for poor reward. One of them flat out said to me that he loved AB and PvP, but that he hated that the reward was so crap, so he was going to go back to farming!

The same thing is true elsewhere in PvP. It's a winner take all system where the losers get jack, and often the winners don't do much better. If the rewards (in terms of balth and kurz and lux, not title points, weapons or cash) were bumped up for losers and winners so that they were more competitive with PvE rewards, I might be able to get some more guildies to ignore the downsides in favor of the awesome upside of having fun killing people, making money from zkeys and gaining rank in various titles.

There's no reason not to be in favor of something like this. If you mostly PvE, you'll get better rewards when you occasionally jump in and PvP. If you PvP, you should already know that there aren't enough people in any of the match types, and it'd be a better game for everyone if there were more.

So help me out ANet! All these guys are waiting for is a better payoff for the time they invest in PvP! I don't know why it's an issue, but it is! So please fix it!

FoxBat · Mar 27, 2011, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Zaishen Quests are fairly decent, but otherwise I agree. It's a travesty how JQ/FA have eclipsed AB.

jazilla · Mar 27, 2011, 11:27 PM // 23:27

While I agree, I have also noticed how slow it is to get in an AB match even during an AB weekend. I think the rewards need to be bumped and the number of matches able to go at all times needs to get a bump too.

SpiritThief · Mar 27, 2011, 11:55 PM // 23:55

It promotes team play tho. Guild Wars isn't about playing with your friends. Its about playing with AI and random LEET people who say BAH is a noob skill while they spam the same 3 mesmer hexes.

All backed by the musical ping of some random douche spaming a turtle while a monk dances and heals it.

Fay Vert · Mar 28, 2011, 01:11 AM // 01:11

The PvP ways to get faction are pretty bad compared to speed clears so I agree they need bumping up. However you have to be very careful about rewarding the losers as you willl turn the area full of afk leech bots and real players will get even less play time.

Aeon221 · Mar 28, 2011, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Any system any person can think up will be gamed and abused by some other person.

That shouldn't stop us improving the system we have.

Spiritz · Mar 28, 2011, 08:04 AM // 08:04

The problem with your idea - gw is a split game , it has a pve side and a pvp side.
Not everyone likes the other side to what they play , i got put off ab years ago because of the way it started getting elitism creep in.Thats to say if you hadnt a high lux/kurz rank you wasnt accepted in a team / not the build the leader wanted to run and mostly it was - win win win and no fun and your a noob if you got killed etc.
Pve option of speedclear or vanquish is done by players who are after the lux/kurz title which yes is faster - but unlike pvp where you can almost walk in and play - pve side you need to both get the area unlocked and also finish the campaign for hm access.
Changing the pvp rewards - nah , even on a bonus weekend where faction is doubled for ab doesnt always seem to draw ppl in.Zcombat can be easily farmed - common knollege and can pay quite gd - something that pve doesnt have and we know most zkey sellers get theirs from pvp.
What is a problem with pvp also is how you have meta builds and everyone goes with them - i recall years ago when kurz decided to adopt the many mm`s and mob routine and each match you faced upto 4 mm`s in the kurz side and after a few mins of being mobbed you walk out of base and find your stuck with a huge army to face an death - you die and face the same problem.
Also you say about fun - try explaining to ppl who think they should win every single match and get upset/abusive if the side wins - its serious business to them and even that puts off players.
Btw wasnt it a few years ago when pvp rewards in jq/fa/ab were adjusted and that didnt seem to make that much of a difference.

zwei2stein · Mar 28, 2011, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Problem: You want to play PvP for fun, but you want to lure co-players with rewards.

It is not fun to play with or against farmers and once farm is exhausted (= people get their luxon/kurzick titles) or outperformed, they will be gone back to PvE.

Also, hero battle resign day says hi.

If you want something shiny new to make ABs incredibly popular: /abrank

Aeon221 · Mar 28, 2011, 12:19 PM // 12:19

I'm not saying this will seduce everyone into PvP, nor do I even want that.

I'm also not saying that this will fix people being cruel, rude or idiots. After an experience last night, where a member of my guild was INCREDIBLY rude after I asked if anyone wanted to go do some PvP and ended up harassing our halls team in vent, I can guarantee you that this is a problem wherever there are people whatever their preferred game type.

This is a very specific fix to a very specific problem, aimed at the group of people who might want to (or at least aren't opposed to) PvP, but aren't happy with the rewards they are getting per time unit when those rewards are compared to farming.

In other words, people who would PvP casually if they thought it wouldn't hurt their title progression per time unit (which the current system does in a significant way).*

Again, I don't understand why this is an issue for people in my guild. I PvP because I enjoy it, not to get shinies! It's why I play Mount and Blade Warband, and why I giggle when I headshot someone with a javelin or roll my tanks over enemy infantry in WiC. But it is, and fixing it would mean more people willing to at least give PvP a shot! Maybe not a huge number, but a greater than zero number.

*I personally see no reason for PvP to not also reward winners financially (which it does to an extent, but not really), but many PvErs seem rather opposed to the idea, so I won't discuss it. In any event, it would surely help those newest to PvP more than anyone else, since they seem to need gear and skills the most!

Silmar Alech · Mar 28, 2011, 12:56 PM // 12:56

I don't know if you can lure PvE players into PvP matches with higher rewards and expect them to have fun. They will do it only because of the rewards, but not because it is fun.

Look at me. I became a PvE-only player. I used to play AB, JQ, FA a bit. I even tried a few HA and GvG matches in earlier years, but it was no fun. The low-level AB, JQ and FA were fun while they were new for me, but they became stale since it is exactly the same gameplay every match. Same map, same single goal all year long. And you are dependent on your team members you cannot control - they often are so stupid with their tactics, I could scream. No, this is not fun any more. Even if you double the rewards.

If you find friends who have fun there, go ahead. But it should be fun because they like the game format, not because of the rewards.

I play because I want to have fun, not because of the rewards. Many of the things I do additionally give rewards, and it is even more fun because of that. But I also do many things that give no reward at all, and they are still fun and I will continue doing them getting no reward.

Fay Vert · Mar 28, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiritz

Btw wasnt it a few years ago when pvp rewards in jq/fa/ab were adjusted and that didnt seem to make that much of a difference.

If you recall back then FA was low population and JQ was impossible to get in to unless you organised two teams yourself. Back then cartography was harder because you could not get into that area. So yes, your example actually proved the point that with the right rewards, you can get people to play these dead areas.

LifeInfusion · Mar 28, 2011, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I know someone who got max luxon rank with AB (before faction from shrines was added). It's doable but it takes a retarded amount of time.

Most of my luxon rank is from AB as well but mine isn't maxed.

Faction via PVP is definitely not casual player friendly...even at the casual level.

Why? · Mar 28, 2011, 09:20 PM // 21:20

AB really isn't pvp. Or to state it more accurately, to win in AB you don't want to pvp, you want to go kill npc's.

All the pvp titles are long and hard to get, because at one point pvp'ers played because they liked playing, and titles were not all about maxing.

ItsJustMe · Mar 28, 2011, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

AB really isn't pvp. Or to state it more accurately, to win in AB you don't want to pvp, you want to go kill npc's.

All the pvp titles are long and hard to get, because at one point pvp'ers played because they liked playing, and titles were not all about maxing.

No, it isn't 'true' pvp, but it is a nice balance of both, don't you think?
I think the original intent was to get folks into a 'gentle' form of pvp to see if they enjoyed it. If they did, then great, if not, oh well.

I never pvp'd before AB. I didn't like it (RA/TA et al). But I got into a guild who did it all the time and I learned the ropes. After awhile, it's all I seemed to do. Then they broke up and I found a guild who gvg'd alot. I had never done that, but they were a great group of guys and we had a ton of fun.

I guess where I'm going is this: AB/JQ/FA are stepping stones into pvp. Not quite pvp, but enough to allow you to determine if pvp is for you.

That being said, I would love to see some attention paid to these formats. Especially considering where low-end pvp has been going. IE, codex/hero battles/TA. It would seem worth the live teams while to invest some minor changes.

-i

Ghull Ka · Mar 29, 2011, 10:28 PM // 22:28

For what it's worth, mate, FA and JQ can provide some pretty good times. Not "write an epic blog about it" stuff, sure, ,but potentially as good as any MW2 server you could jump into. Frags, folks and fun, ya know?

Aeon221 · Mar 30, 2011, 03:59 AM // 03:59

I am aware that not everyone who jumps in for the rewards will like the format, or pvp in general. However, a non-zero portion of that group WILL like the format, and may choose to go on to higher end pvp as a result. That's good for higher end pvp and for those people, as they've found a new and exciting way to get even more enjoyment out of GW. Yay for them!

People do indeed complain that pvping slows their progression; I've heard it, seen it hear and I've had people reject pvp because of it. I want pvp to be around as effective as pve for getting these titles because I want people to be able to choose the format they prefer without having to worry about how it impacts their title progression.

My dream is for pvp to have the fewest barriers to entry for pve folks. That DOES NOT MEAN I want all pvers to pvp. I just want them to have no excuse for not giving it a shot OTHER THAN PERSONAL PREFERENCE, which I can totally understand.

After all, I've been playing since '05 and I've yet to kill Dhuum, or that guy in DoA, or that guy in Slaver's Exile, or those guys in the two dungeons in Factions. I don't enjoy that style heavily min-maxed style of play. As a result, I totally get that you might not want to play some pvp formats. There's nothing wrong with that!

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Slightly Off Topic Response Section
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I see it like this. If I can take a PVP character somewhere, then that mission is a PVP Mission. Direct combat might not be the most effective option for completion, but it is an option.

With regard to optimal strategies in AB, I'd like it if the ticket system was reworked such that kills generated a larger part of the score. Maybe shrines could provide some kind of active benefit rather than just incrementing score? Or maybe they could use the offset system that hero battles had?

I dunno, I haven't thought about it. What I do know is that those sprawling fights in AB are oodles of fun!

If you're not having fun with your team, the onus is on you to fix the problem. Why? Because the only element you can completely control is you.

I've never had difficulty getting decent players on my team, but I'm picky about the level of fail I'll accept. If I recognize the bar, great. If I see an unusual but likely effective bar, great. If I see a bar that is completely fail, I explain why the bar is no good and suggest changes. People who are obstinate get booted, people who make changes stay, and people who make a compelling argument get added to the friend list.

If the team has no synergy, step up and lead. You don't lead by being sulky and shouty. You lead with rapid and firm directional guidance, and by making it easy for the team to regroup if separated by death or retreat. And, more importantly, you laugh off the losses and cheer the wins, without singling people out or making them feel guilty.

I get the occasional loose cannon, but then that's what the kick button is for. Combat is not the time for quirky individualism!

Voice chat builds an effective team unit, so use it. If it's not available, effective map art and rapid typing can make up for the lack. I had one hilarious team mate who drew arrows shaped like dicks faster than I could draw a normal arrow -- incredibly impressive! Apparently he picked it up farming DoA, and knew nothing about pvp. But, hey, he was fun, eager and willing to learn, and that's enough for me!

Zebideedee · Mar 30, 2011, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Give me guns, crosshairs, strafe (not sidestep, forward and left or right) and jump and i'll play PvP more

That said no doubt 80% of the PvP'rs would turn into campers if that happened